I was paging through my manuals (and some other airlines' manuals) and noticed that under the Engines, APU EICAS chapter it states:
MESSAGE - Level - Aural - Message Logic
ENG 1, 2, 3, 4 FAIL - Caution - Beeper - Engine failure or flameout. Inhibited on the ground.
When I activate a flamout on the ground in PSX, I am getting the ENG FAIL EICAS, master caution lights, and beeper. To me, this seems to be correct because I think I recall seeing this on low-speed aborts below 80 knots in the sim, but this is not what I am normally looking for to make that decision anyway (asymmetric thrust and N1 tape out of my periferal vision are more the tip-off).
Any comments on why these manuals would say that these indications are inhibited on the ground, or am I just misreading it? Thanks.
Jon D.
My manuals also say "air mode".
N2 less than 50%
Oil pressure less than 10psi (GE only,* 25psi for RB211s)
Fuel control switch ON
GCB is open
Airplane in air mode
Perhaps the momentary loss of a generator put some part of the air-ground system into air mode? (although I can't imagine a sim simulating this)
Can you recall which engine failed?
I find the oil pressure logic strange. I thought a windmilling engine in flight would be able to keep some kind of oil pressure in the system (EDIT)* Another manual specifies a more sensible 70psi for the GE. (EDIT #2: 10psi to 30psi is the acceptable range for oil pressure at idle, so it follows that sub idle/windmilling speeds will produce less than this)
Rgds
JHW
Hi John,
It was
any engine I selected in PSX. I am using the GE engines.
I have to admit that I could have misunderstood this ENG FAIL EICAS all along. I
thought I would get the master caution lights along with the beeper and ENG FAIL EICAS if it failed on takeoff, prior to when the inhibit kicks in at 80 knots.
In the sim, this is what they like to do to see if you are going to keep it on the runway using asymmetric brake and tiller which, under the circumstances, is the only way to keep it on the runway:
You are really light, there is low visibility (500RVR), a wet runway, and they tell you to use max thrust. They also throw in a 15-knot crosswind coming from the side of the outboard engine that they plan to fail on you at around 50 knots. At that point, the last thing you have time to do is look at the EICAS messages or caution lights. So, I can't remember if I get a master caution with ENG FAIL in this scenario or not. I am just happy that I kept it on the runway and I get to keep my job.
I am getting it consistently with PSX when I fail it on the ground, prior to takeoff. Maybe I'm misreading the manual and they mean that it is inhibited on the ground after 80 knots?
[ADDENDUM]:
From the PSX manual p.531:
QuoteTakeoff phase caution inhibit
The takeoff phase caution inhibit deactivates the beeper and the master
caution lights.
The takeoff phase caution inhibit begins when these two conditions are true:
+ Radio altimeters L & R are inoperative or RA is below 400 ft
+ ADC computed IAS is valid and rises through 80 kt
The takeoff phase caution inhibit ends when any of these conditions is true:
• 20 seconds have passed since the IRS pitch attitude rotated through 5°
• Radio altimeter L or R is operative and RA is above 400 ft
• ADC computed IAS is valid and below 75 kt
• ADC computed IAS is invalid
The beeper will sound and the caution lights will illuminate when the takeoff
phase caution inhibit ends while a caution message already exists.
So, the PSX manual seems to be consistent with the PSX sim (and with how I understood it would work in the airplane). The master caution and beeper are inhibited for an ENG FAIL on takeoff if it happens after 80 knots, and then it will un-inhibit at 75 knots on the abort. I just can't figure out why two different airline manuals appear to say that the ENG FAIL master caution lights and beeper are totally inhibited on the ground.
Hi,
the condition "airplane in air mode" is not included in PSX's "ENG FAIL" message logic.
Just the common take-off inhibit logic inhibits it in PSX.
Are the official manuals again simplified when they say "airplane in air mode"?
Cheers,
|-|ardy
Could John's quote be referring to the conditions required to automatically activate the ignition for a flameout?
Also, it's unclear whether the message is an event message or a continuous message.
An event message ("ALTITUDE ALERT", for instance) can be erased by pushing the master caution reset switch.
If "ENG FAIL" is an event message, and inhibited on the ground in the event of an engine failure, the message will not appear after lift-off.
If "ENG FAIL" is a continuous message, and inhibited on the ground, the message will disappear after touch-down during an E/O landing, and re-appear after lift-off.
In PSX it's an event message.
|-|ardy
In PSX, if you set up a flameout to occur at 60 knots on takeoff, you will get the two master caution lights, the beeper and the ENG FAIL EICAS. If you set it up to flameout at 100 knots, the two master caution lights and the beeper will be inhibited (you still get the ENG FAIL EICAS) until you decelerate through 75 knots on the reject, then you will get the master caution and the beeper. This is working as I had thought it would. The only question I had was why the manuals say that the ENG FAIL is inhibited on the ground.
QuoteCould John's quote be referring to the conditions required to automatically activate the ignition for a flameout?
No, there is a section in my manuals specifically for EICAS messages relating to engines. The logic is specified for that particular message.
(http://www.iinet.net.au/~b744er@ozemail.com.au/PSX/engxfail.GIF)
Manuals also state that the relight is so good (particularly) on the RB211, that the engine will usually relight before the ENG (X) FAIL message appears.
Interesting. This would seem to contradict what I am seeing with PSX. I am getting the master caution lights, beeper and EICAS ENG FAIL on takeoff, when below 80 knots with either a flameout or severe FOD damage. I wish Boeing could have been a bit clearer on this.
I wonder what the logic is behind this on ground inhibition.
Why the pilots shouldn't get this warning (caution message)? In case of an engine failure the FP will definitely feel the asymmetric thrust and the NFP (or MP) should notice in the EICAS an engine failure (falling N1 or EPR). So what is the problem to get this message (as confirmation for a problem) below 80 kts when it is safe and preferable to abort anyway?
QuoteManuals also state that the relight is so good (particularly) on the RB211, that the engine will usually relight before the ENG (X) FAIL message appears.
Quote from: emerydc8 on Sat, 6 Feb 2016 23:51
Interesting. This would seem to contradit what I am seeing with PSX. I am getting the master caution lights, beeper and EICAS ENG FAIL on takeoff, when below 80 knots with either a flameout or severe FOD damage.
Now, let's not get grotesque :-) A flameout set on the Instructor's malfunction menu is a flameout that the RB211 simply cannot relight immediately. Period :-) If we now move all engine malfunctions into the no-problem category we don't need no training sim anymore. Flameouts may occur in PSX also in adverse weather, without any malfunctions programmed on the Instructor, and those flameouts may relight the RB211 promptly :-)
And a severe FOD (foreign object damage) cannot be relighted at all because the N2/N3 shaft will stop completely.
My only question is whether the message inhibit just hides the message while on the ground, or never lets it get onto the message list if the failure occured on the ground.
Cheers,
|-|ardy
From what I was taught, PSX has it correct -- after 80 knots, an engine fail (whether it be a flameout or severe FOD) will result in an ENG FAIL EICAS, but you won't get the master caution lights or the beeper. They are inhibited until 400' or decelerating below 75 knots on an abort. My original post was just to ask why the Boeing manuals make the statement, "Engine failure or flameout. Inhibited on the ground." Maybe Peter knows.
[ADDENDUM]:
Okay, now I'm doubting myself. I found this in the latest Atlas Air check airman training guide:
Quote
Engine malfunctions general
The ENG ___ FAIL EICAS caution message is inhibited on the ground so as not to distract the flight crew when an engine fails.
Severe engine damage is assumed if any of the following:
An engine failure occurs in association with high EGT.
N1 and/or N2 are very low or at zero RPMs. This is why it is recommended that the ENG status page is reviewed after an engine failure (engine status called by PF). N2 can only be displayed on the ENG status page.
Airframe vibrations occur in conjunction with abnormal engine indications.
. . . .
Caution alerts will be displayed at the top of multiple messages below any warning alerts. The master CAUTION light illuminates for EICAS caution messages. Caution alerts are normally major system failures such as EQUIP COOLING or ELEC AC BUS x. The caution alert ENG x FAIL is inhibited on the ground.
QuoteManuals also state that the relight is so good (particularly) on the RB211, that the engine will usually relight before the ENG (X) FAIL message appears.
For this fault message, the Fault Isolation Manual lists various procedures based on whether the engine relights or not. There may be water in the fuel, engine blade damage, fuel leaks, etc...
I think the manuals are clear enough now: The message is inhibited on the ground.
But some details are still unknown; imagine you do some touch-and-go circuits:
Which statement is true?
1. When an engine fails in the air, the message disappears after touchdown and re-appears after lift-off.
2. When an engine fails in the air, the message disappears forever after touchdown.
3. When an engine fails on the ground, the message appears after lift-off.
4. When an engine fails on the ground, the message never appears, not even after lift-off.
(All statements imply all conditions for the message are true except for the on-ground condition which these statements handle individually.)
|-|
My understanding was engine FAILURE is inhibited on the ground, because it is assumed someone is monitoring it and/or you will feel the asymmetry, or it is not critical (e.g. during taxi).
If you get airborne, you will then get the ENG FAIL message, but I seem to think this was linked to the fuel cutoff switch (placing the associated switch in CUTOFF clears the message, so it will not occur with a shutdown engine).
"Fuel not cutoff" condition is implied in the above conditions.
Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 7 Feb 2016 14:23
(All statements imply all conditions for the message are true except for the on-ground condition which these statements handle individually.)
That the fuel cutoff erases the message is obvious, otherwise you would get the message on every inflight start attempt when the ENG SHUTDOWN message disappears.
I can say for sure that on our sim when I was given an engine failure after V1, I would not get the warning caution lights or the beeper until 400' RA. Whether the EICAS showed up prior to rotating, I can't remember. I think it did.
QuoteWhether the EICAS showed up prior to rotating, I can't remember. I think it did.
The source of the logic for this message doesn't seem to be shown in the manuals. Whilst the message is listed in the FAFC section of the manuals, oil pressure is not sent to the FAFC. This means part of the logic is generated in the EIU. This makes tracking down the source of "in air" harder to do. Normally air/ground signals are generated by sensors on the landing gear, but some systems have air mode logic generated by other means. e.g. some parts of the electrical system define air mode as being 3 or more electrical generators above a certain rpm. However, if the ENG (X) FAIL message used this, there would be no ENG FAIL messages if more than 1 engine flamed out.
When you are a contestant/pilot in the sim, it's sometimes hard to recall at what point these EICAS alerts appear. I've asked a couple of friends and they're not sure either.
I think that when given an engine failure after V1, you will see the ENG FAIL EICAS well prior to reaching 400', even though the master caution and beeper won't occur until 400'. Whether the EICAS message happens when still on the ground or immediately after liftoff, I don't recall, but if I had to guess I would say it happened when still on the ground.
This is one of those questions that a certain sim instructor has probably observed hundreds of times.
When I played in the Lufthansa sims in the nineties, there was no such message; the LH pilot in the sim told me the first sign of an engine failure is the ELEC GEN message. -- I guess the ENG FAIL message has been added some years later, or it was available all the time and the pilot who told me that was just referring to ground operations.
That makes me wonder if it could be an operator preference.
QuoteWhen I played in the Lufthansa sims in the nineties, there was no such message; the LH pilot in the sim told me the first sign of an engine failure is the ELEC GEN message. -- I guess the ENG FAIL message has been added some years later, or it was available all the time and the pilot who told me that was just referring to ground operations.
There may have been a EIU software upgrade. Unfortunately, the oldest AOM in my library only goes back to '98 (and the message is listed, with the in-air requirements).
The LH pilot may have been correct in saying that the ELEC GEN is the first sign of engine failure, considering the oil pressure may take a few moments to drop below the required value to trigger the ENG X FAIL message.
I was looking at Peter's outboard engine failure after takeoff video and noticed some unusual discrepancies in the alerts compared to how I understand it. For this example, I don't know if he programmed a failure and a fire on the same engine, but the timing of the fire bell and warning beeper is puzzling:
After V1 (and still on the ground) -- ENG 4 FAIL EICAS (no beeper), followed by ELEC GEN OFF 4 (no beeper);
At 150' RA -- Fire Bell, plus red FIRE ENG 4 EICAS; and
At 200' RA -- Caution beeper.
https://youtu.be/IEtRKRb3NCk?t=1m30s
On the sim I used (ex-ANA), the fire warning bell and caution beeper are basically inhibited until 400' RA. Since Peter didn't say anything about this in the video, maybe this is normal and BA's aircraft are modified to allow fire warning bells at 150' and caution beepers at 200'? Not sure.
Perhaps an audio timing glitch in the video recording? I couldn't reproduce the 150' warning in PSX and all my manuals and the PSX manual say 400'. Even the BA Maintenance Manual says 400' (unless it has changed recently)
Either that or Peter was just using an earlier version that Hardy has since corrected. What I am seeing in PSX now is what I believe to be correct as far as the ENG FAIL caution (I haven't checked the FIRE ENG warning yet but presume it's correct too).
I scoured the Internet for probably six hours trying to find more information on this but no luck.
400 feet is not the only condition.
The inhibit is also cancelled after 25* seconds, whichever is given first.
See page 531. This is implemented since the first version; no corrections necessary.
* 25 sec after V1 for warning inhibit, 20 sec after 5° pitch for caution inhibit.
Peter's video demonstrates these delays 25/20 perfectly.
I can't remember what was programmed now, I'm afraid, but I would probably have programmed the fire warning at a different point to the initial failure to make it more realistic..
I don't think there would have been a glitch in the recording, it would have been done in one take.
Peter
There's nothing wrong in the video or in PSX; the inhibits are also cancelled by timers, not just by RA. With engine failures it may take an eternity until 400 RA; in such cases the timers cancel the inhibits before reaching 400 RA.
|-|ardy
(This is now off-topic; this has nothing to do with the special ground inhibit of the ENG FAIL message.)
You're right, Hardy. So, PSX is working correctly even in situations where the inhibit timer activates prior to 400'. So the video is now off-topic.
The only question that remains is the original topic -- Why do the manuals say that the ENG FAIL EICAS, master caution and beeper are inhibited on the ground? And no one seems to have an answer.
Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 7 Feb 2016 15:39
"Fuel not cutoff" condition is implied in the above conditions.
To me, statement 3 is correct.
Just did a rather unscientific test of an engine failure in the big sim with a novice guest who was trying to loop the loop after take-off!
ENG FAIL definitely doesn't appear on the ground. Despite the rapidly increasing pitch rate today I did try and sneak a peek at the EICAS as well as save us from disaster and I think the ENG FAIL did indeed come on before 400ft but I would have to check again in somewhat more empirical conditions.
Will try to have a another go when I am in on Tues night.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Did you ever get a chance to revisit this issue? I see Hardy has it on his to-do list.
Jon D.
I might get chance this weekend, Jon.
Peter
Thanks, Peter.
I guess the consensus is that you will not get an EICAS ENG FAIL until airborne if you lose an engine after 80 knots.
I would be curious, though, to see if you would get the EICAS (and the aural alert and master caution for that matter) if you lost the engine prior to reaching 80 knots (prior to the caution inhibits taking effect). This seems to be yet another area where Boeing is unable to explain the system clearly enough. We are dealing with three different things here -- aural alert, master caution light, and EICAS ENG FAIL.
If the master caution inhibit takes effect at 80 knots, then do you get an aural alert and master caution light but no EICAS if you lose one below 80 knots (the EICAS alone being inhibited on the ground)? Or are the aural alert and master caution lights also part of the ground/air logic if you lose one below 80 knots?
I'm sure you will never get just a CAUTION light or a beeper if a caution message does not appear.
It would have no meaning.
"Look, the caution light is on!"
"Why?"
"Dunno."
:-)
True. So if you have an engine fail prior to the inhibt (below 80 knots), do you get all three or no warnings at all?
I cant really test an eng fail below 80kts at the moment. It wouldn't fit with my flight sim guests. Sorry.
Quote from: emerydc8 on Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:50
True. So if you have an engine fail prior to the inhibt (below 80 knots), do you get all three or no warnings at all?
You may get caution messages -- except for ENG FAIL because that is inhibited on the ground.
I just tried a failure in the big sim at max weight.
The "ENG FAIL X" message appeared within a few seconds of getting airborne, although the failure occurred at 159 kts for a 167 kts rotate..I think it came on at about 30ft..
Peter
Thanks for confirming this for us, Peter.
Jon D.
I'm sorry but I don't understand what Peter's last test proof.
With Vr of 167 kts, speed of 159 kts is above V1. At this point even engine fire is only announced by EICAS message, not by a warning light or the bell sound.
Did anyone expect to get a Caution message (EICAS message, light and sound) at this point? I'm not surprised at all he didn't get it (I was if it was the other way around).
Cheers,
Hi Avi,
It is my understanding that we were only looking at the ENG FAIL EICAS -- not the master caution lights and aural indication. Those would be inhibited until VR + 20 seconds or 400' AGL, but the EICAS caution ENG FAIL would still appear on the EICAS as soon as you are airborne.
Jon D.
Indeed.
Peter
Quote from: John H Watson on Sat, 6 Feb 2016 04:21
My manuals also say "air mode".
N2 less than 50%
Oil pressure less than 10psi (GE only,* 25psi for RB211s)
Fuel control switch ON
GCB is open
Airplane in air mode
Perhaps the momentary loss of a generator put some part of the air-ground system into air mode? (although I can't imagine a sim simulating this)
Can you recall which engine failed?
I find the oil pressure logic strange. I thought a windmilling engine in flight would be able to keep some kind of oil pressure in the system (EDIT)* Another manual specifies a more sensible 70psi for the GE.
Rgds
JHW
These quoted, engine specific oil pressure figures for the ENG FAIL message agree with the respective red range on the EICAS.
25 on RR
10 on GE
etc.
It makes sense.
After a flame-out it will always drop into the red range.
Cheers,
|-|ardy
P.S.: As for the air mode: Could it be that the EIU, in this case, uses the same PSEU relay that it uses for the IDLE DISAGREE message (F23 ...)? If that relay fails on the ground, ENG FAIL can appear on the ground. Better than never.
QuoteAfter a flame-out it will always drop into the red range.
Thanks. I temporarily misplaced my oil pressure Vs rpm chart for the GE. After relocating it, I see 10 psi to 30psi is the normal pressure range for the engine at idle.
(http://www.iinet.net.au/~b744er@ozemail.com.au/PSX/OilPressureCF6.gif)
For the RB211, 25psi does seem to be a significant number. Quoting the Engine/Aiframe Engineering Training notes...
During rapid deceleration, Oil Pressure may drop below
25psi, this is permitted provided the pressure doesn't drop
below 18psi and recovers to above 25psi in 5 minutes.I guess I was (incorrectly) assuming that because a windmilling engine hydraulic pump produces sufficient pressure at high airspeeds, so might the oil pumps.
Rgds
JHW
New logic is now implemented in 10.0.8 beta 6:
http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=3462.0
|-|
Note: The above last post was from 2016. Now we're in 2018.
I just noticed in my GE model, when a flame-out occured, the oil pressure stays above the red range (above 10 psi) when the airspeed is above ca. 260 KIAS.
When above the red range, i.e. above 260 KIAS, the ENG FAIL message cannot occur. This consequence only affects the GE model with its GE specific oil pressure limit system.
In PSX version 10.0.8 I had set the following oil pressure minima for the ENG FAIL message as per certain maintenance documents:
GE : 10
PW : 70
RR : 25
Now I'm asking myself what I should do with that GE minimum to get ENG FAIL also at a higher KIAS:
1. Modify the ratio of N2 windmilling versus oil pressure so that it will drop into the red at any KIAS.
2. Use the amber limit instead of the red one.
3. Leave it as is and assume this effect also occurs on the real GE (but maybe not in the big sims).
I prefer #1.
Any opinions?
Regards,
|-|ardy
P.S.: If the GE at idle sets an oil pressure of up to 30 psi, and if 10 psi is truly the miminum for the GE's ENG FAIL message, then maybe it's intentional that the GE won't trigger the message? Maybe the designers don't consider a tempoary flame-out a serious engine failure? The oil pressure will go into the red when a severe FOD or compressor surge occurred.
Do we have any videos of any engine shutdown showing oil pressures? Perhaps we could get percentage oil pressure drop with decreasing N2 or N3?
Probably not the best idea comparing engines though. N3's may behave different from N2's.
The parameter ratios in PSX are based on engine start observations (for each engine type). I think when shutting down, the RPM related oil pressure behaviour will not be much different.
I found a somewhat blurry video of shutdown on an RB211 (after an engine ground run).
0:00 Idle pressure at engine shutdown was 64psi at 60%N3
~0.02 60psi at 47%N3
~0:03 50psi at 42%N3
~0:05 40psi at 35%N3
~0:07 30psi at 30%N3
~0:12 20psi at 22%N3
~0:27 10psi at 11%N3
Thank you. The RB211 stuff is fine in PSX. The message problem only affects the GE model with its GE specific lower oil pressure limit system.
According to the AMM, at 55%N2, oil pressure anywhere between 10~30 psi is considered normal on the GE. I assume it's the upper normal value which is giving you problems.
OK, thanks. I'll tune it further down below 10 for windmilling RPMs ...
While we're at it ... I noticed an interesting side effect.
As we know, when the fuel control switch is moved to RUN, a 5 minute timer will start (indicated on Instructor > Analysis > Miscellaneous, top right corner, in seconds for each engine); when 5 minutes have passed, the EIU sets the engine-is-running status to TRUE, no matter whether or not the engine is physically running.
This status is used in various parts of the 744 systems where the logic checks whether the engine is running, e.g. for the ELEC GEN OFF message logic etc.
Is this 5 minute timer also used by maintenance on the ground to simulate the engine-is-running status for certain logic tests while the engine isn't physically running?
Or is it used for the system logic alone (not for maintenance tests) to latch the engine-is-running status once the engine has been physically started? The status can only be reset by switching the fuel control to CUTOFF.
I'm asking because ...
The engine-is-running status is set to TRUE when N2/N3 is above ca. 50% OR when the fuel control is in RUN for 5 minutes.
The RPM range around 50% (+/- 1%) is a critical range for some logical sequences and timings. E.g. when the IDG fails due to low RPM (ca. 50%), the ELEC GEN OFF message will only occur when the engine is running, and that is (physically) only the case when N2/N3 are above ca. 50%. To get rid of this dilemma, we have the 5 minute timer. This latches the eninge-is-running status until the fuel control is switched to CUTOFF. Thanks to this timer, all logical effects which indicate while-engine-is-running failures will operate correctly -- even if the engine has spooled down below 50% in the moment when the failure occurs.
This is fine. But ...
When a failure occurs before 5 minutes have passed, the trick won't work.
So my actual question is ...
Should the timer jump to its 5 minutes level as soon as N2/N3 are above 50%? Only the 5-minutes-passed status will latch the engine-is-running status. Once the engine is truly running, do we want to latch it immediately or only after 5 minutes?
Cheers,
|-|ardy
QuoteIs this 5 minute timer also used by maintenance on the ground to simulate the engine-is-running status for certain logic tests while the engine isn't physically running?
Perhaps the guys who work in major maintenance can answer this. I've not come across any specific checks which require the fuel control switches in RUN for 5 minutes. For line personnel, the message is just a side-effect of pulling CBs.
QuoteShould the timer jump to its 5 minutes level as soon as N2/N3 are above 50%?
The schematics simply show an OR gate for the engine running logic. Based on this, the timer should keep running, but I wouldn't bet my life on it ;D
Any idea why they didn't implement an immediate latch instead of a delayed latch? I mean, they could also latch it after 2 seconds instead of 300.
May these 5 minutes relate to oil system stabilization?
Or engine at operating temperature in general. We are told not to firewall the thrust levers until 5 minutes have passed.
But you do get some odd systems with this 5 minute run timer:
Faults relating to GE 11th stage cooling (by air)
FLIGHT RCDR SYS Status message
Probe Heat messages (e.g. HEAT P/S CAPT)
Some messages are latched, some aren't.
Quote from: John H Watson on Fri, 15 Jun 2018 16:17
Or engine at operating temperature in general. We are told not to firewall the thrust levers until 5 minutes have passed.
Meaning that a takeoff shouldn't occur withing 5 minutes of the latest engine start ?
This applied to maintenance procedures (RB211). Our pilot procedures included the following:
Before Takeoff Procedures (CF6):
Engine oil temperature must be above the bottom of the temperature scale
Run the engine for at least 3 minutes
(During taxi) Use a thrust setting normally used for taxi operations
Before Takeoff Procedures (RB211)
When the engines have been shut down for more than 1.5 hours, run the engines for at least 5 minutes
When the engines have been shut down less than 1.5 hours, run the engines for at least 3 minutes.
(During taxi) Use a thrust setting normally used for taxi operations
Oil temperature must be above the lower amber band before takeoff.
Thx John !
Oil pressures are now downtuned, and ENG FAIL messages are accordingly guaranteed in PSX update 10.36:
http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=4191.0
|-|ardy