744 Forum

Apron => Hangar 7 => Topic started by: jcomm on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 11:37

Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: jcomm on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 11:37
Has anyone tried to operate there with PSSX ?  

Do any operators use the 744 there IRL?
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 11:53
Funny... Druk Air... "druk" is the Dutch word for "pressure"... both ways...
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Hessel Oosten on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 12:37
Jose,

Non-sense.... to ask here for routes to Paro.... ;)

Wikipedia says.. that only 8 pilots in the world are allowed to land there.

You are (likely..) not one of them ....    ;)

Hessel
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen D on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 13:24
Quote from: Hessel Oosten

Jose,

Non-sense.... to ask here for routes to Paro.... ;)

Wikipedia says.. that only 8 pilots in the world are allowed to land there.

You are (likely..) not one of them ....    ;)

Hessel


According to that same Wikipedia those 8 pilot brought in nearly 182.000 passengers!

Today the biggest plane that flies in there is an Airbus, say 150 pax. If all the flights for the whole year are executed by Airbuses, thats more than 1200 flights. Only during the day and it needs to be VFR weather. The eight guys, two to a plane (?) must be pretty busy on the days they can fly!  :)

Jeroen
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Hessel Oosten on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 13:26
Another interesting detail of Bhutan is, that the people there do speak of their:

Gross National Happiness

in stead of:

Gross National Product

Much to learn there !

H.
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen D on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 13:39
I hope to be visiting it soon! Only a short hop from Delhi

Jeroen
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Pierre Theillere on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 13:49
Hi folks!

Maybe "Drunk Air", aka WorldFlight, might include Paro in one of the next editions? Maybe rather for only a missed approach: not sure it would be do-able to land (and stop), and even worse, depart, from here!
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: jcomm on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 15:28
Then, I'm going to be the first 744 pilot to land there!!!!

PSX includes the rw in it's database, and for a start I already created a "takeoff" situ :-)
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 20:02
What is the max gross weight that you can get off that runway?
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: DougSnow on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 22:34
Get me at least distances and heights for the obstacles and I'll run it in a few professional tools I have...

That 98ft wide runway though, thats a problem for a 744...

But for Drunk Air/Worldflight, that would be an awesome approach!
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Hessel Oosten on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 22:59
http://skyvector.com/airport/VQPR/Paro-Bhutan-Airport

http://www.virtualiroma.it/eventi/DANG4/VQPR.pdf

Hessel
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: DougSnow on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 23:53
Actually those charts are worthless.  I'd need

http://www.dca.gov.bt/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/VQPR-3-1-RWY151.pdf

http://www.dca.gov.bt/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/VQPR-3-2-RWY-331.pdf

But to take a lot of the terrain out of consideration, Druk Air probably does these under RNP and has RNP EOSIDS drawn up by consultants to give them a magenta line to follow between the mountains for takeoff.

But as a point of reference, TOPCAT gives the MTOW as 213.8Kgs F20 Field Limit with 782ft of stop margin without obstacles being considered, so it would be a low weight takeoff in any event.
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Phil Bunch on Fri, 3 Oct 2014 23:54
There is a USA-created TV show episode with a title something like "The world's most dangerous airports".  I'm pretty sure it includes this airport.  The show is quite amazing to watch, seeing (usually small) airliners land and takeoff in places like this.
-----------------------



The most stressful airport where I have been a passenger was at Milford Sound, New Zealand (NZMF).  There is a 7000 foot mountain not too far from one end of the runway!  It takes a special license and training to be allowed to fly into/out of this airport, and after doing that as a passenger in a small twin-engine prop plane (commercial flight), I can see why.  It was a lot of fun, though.  IIRC, one has to make a very sharp turn shortly after taking off.  The rest of the flight back to Queenstown was spectacular, over NZ's Southern Alps.  We saw hanging waterfalls (a lake high up in a Swiss Alps-appearing mountain range feeding a beautiful waterfall, and tons more spectacular scenery.  I wish we had time to hike the "Milford Trail", which many claim is one of the best hiking trails in the world.  Milford Sound itself was most dramatic, with sharp, high mountains dropping off directly into a beautiful, deep fjord.

Take a look at the aerial view here - click on the aerial airport photos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milford_Sound_Airport

Photos & info re tourist flights are here:

http://www.airmilford.co.nz/milford-sound-flights.html

Hiking on the Milford Track is here:

http://www.newzealand.com/us/feature/milford-track/

2 weeks holiday in NZ convinced me that (based on my personal preferences) NZ is the most beautiful country in the world, and I really loved all the Kiwis I met.  I even looked into emigrating but found that it was impractical if not impossible given my circumstances.  BTW, they also have the best trout fishing in the world at Lake Taupo!  I hired a boat and captain, and fished for a very enjoyable day.  My wife and I soon caught some *huge* rainbow trout - they were very enjoyable to eat!
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 00:57
Saba is nice...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjIS9IIMdI
Dutch territories rule. :-)
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen D on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 07:23
My personal "most difficult" landing in real life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRjUASwNz0g

Catalina island still ranks on the top 10 of most dangerous airports in the USA.
To short a runway for it to be in PSX.

Jeroen
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: pbenoit on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 18:08
I had a Druk Air video of the small 4 engine RJ100 (I think) landing and taking off ... I believe A319s and ATRs are used now.  The airport runway 15/33 is 6445 feet in length and 95 feet wide.  There are no published weight limits.  IRL I don't think you could get a 744 in there.  I suppose it might be fun to try in PSX.  Recalling the video of the approach, has you flying down a winding valley with very high peaks on either side.  Interesting winds also if I remember.

I just googled Paro Bhutan Airport and found three youtube videos of landings

Have fun!!
Cheers
Paul Benoit
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: pbenoit on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 18:52
Yikes, just google earth viewed paro airport .... there are no "normal" turn around areas at the end of the runway ... will have to look at the turning radius of the 744, might not be able to reverse direction to the terminal area.  the final approach is a reversed "S" curve ... onto the runway ... with a high ridge off to the right just before the final left turn onto the runway. ...   I don't think a 319 could make a missed approach since the end of the runway is a very large hill, you'd have to TOGA really early and try, I really can't see a 744 being able to make a missed approach at all ... o well, probably my lack of skill and creativity. ... check the videos out ... there are many ... I suppose since we can't virtually die it would be fun to tryan approach into Paro.  there's one 14 min youtube which shows the whole approach ... very creepy but interesting to watch on a quiet Saturday afternoon  
Reminds me of the LAX approach down the San Gabriel Valley ... only having high mountains on both sides and the Paro valley being way narrower and curvier.
Good grief ... just thinking about flying an approach into Paro makes me want to get another pair of pants for use after landing.... hahahahahahaha.

Fun to think about
Cheers
Paul Benoit
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: J D ADAM on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 20:04
To Phil Bunch and all the people who on this forum who I consider are my good friends.

Thank you Phil for your comments on the beauty of New Zealand. We live at the end of the world in a beautiful and peaceful country, with a re election of good government. We do not suffer the problems of Europe and Africa.

I want to send to you a copy of an e mail I sent to my friends last week when we were experiencing the joys of spring.

Quote
Had to tell somebody!  Tonight we had dinner out on the terrace under the
pink cherry tree full of bees. It has been a beautiful day, and I had
just cut the lawn and it was back to its pristine best. In the garden we had two tuis, two wood pigeons, a kingfisher, rosella, a rabbit, a blackbird singing and
we heard quail in the bush.
Health is improving and National party are in power and the world is good.

Derek            Love to all

By the way I also had a lovely companion as well.



I would have added that I am a very very happy owner of PSX but this would not have meant anything to them.

Also apologize for being off topic!


Cheers,

Derek
NZAA
Title: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: jcomm on Sat, 4 Oct 2014 21:30
Derek!

Look at your feet...

Should the Earth be a cristal, you could see where I am!!!!

I'll program an LPPT - NZAA flight in my PSX ;-)
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Sun, 11 Aug 2019 15:17
Hi

ive created an approach to Paro Rw 33 - it starts at GTSHO @ 17500 ft - on page 28 of the AIP below....

http://farrokhchothia.com/slists/paro/

http://farrokhchothia.com/slists/paro/vqpr_rnav.jpg

Charts:

https://www.doat.gov.bt/aipp/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/AIP-AMD-01-2018.pdf

let me know how it goes...  there are a few arc turns in the approach, but im not sure how to input them.....

cheers,

fc
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: jcomm on Sun, 11 Aug 2019 16:39
Thx a LOT!

Will certainly give this one a try!

EDIT: And I did give it a try - excellent experience, and I really just miss the scenery, although the terrain is there represented in the ND, and gives you at least in it's 2d projection an interesting "view" of what it would mean to fly that approach in a 744 :-)
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: RogerH on Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LBNu_iaR88

Go Peter!
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Britjet on Mon, 12 Aug 2019 10:33
Actually, Simfest was there first and planted a flag accordingly.
Videos below...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv913D0ryF4&t=22s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7LBNu_iaR88

Peter
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Mon, 12 Aug 2019 10:39
hi

ive added some arc points in the approach  -  i havent made a situ with this as yet, but here they are.... if anyone wants to try it.....


GTSHO   27°22'35.51”N    89°47'54.03”E

PR754 27°23'5.32”N    89°40'3.44”E

PR752    27°23'58.60”N   89°25'13.24”E

ARC1   27°23'36.41”N     89°22'2.39”E

PR750 27°21'29.49”N      89°19'24.52”E

ARC2   27°20'43.90”N    89°18'37.05”E

PR730    27°19'10.06”N    89°18'20.11”E

ARC3    27°18'3.37”N    89°18'14.31”E

ARC4   27°16'59.40”N    89°18'33.44”E

ARC5   27°16'2.91”N   89°19'10.36”E

ARC6 27°15'15.02”N     89°20'7.81”E

PR728   27°14'36.59”N    89°21'27.03”E

PR724    27°13'27.75”N    89°25'46.37”E

PR722 27°13'23.90”N    89°28'25.85”E

ARC7 27°14'36.77”N   89°30'45.25”E

PR714 27°15'40.07”N    89°31'41.76”E

PR712    27°16'46.41”N    89°32'21.13”E

ARC8   27°18'17.69”N   89°32'45.27”E

ARC9 27°19'2.30”N    89°32'36.32”E

ARC10 27°19'30.65”N     89°32'5.43”E

ARC11   27°19'52.59”N    89°31'21.97”E

ARC12    27°20'1.83”N    89°30'38.93”E

PR710    27°19'47.77”N    89°29'56.16”E

PR708    27°20'1.34”N    89°28'15.50”E

RW33
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Tue, 13 Aug 2019 10:40
Second One:

starts with hold at PR777 @ 16000


PR777    27°06'04.9130"N     089°31'44.3330”E

PR746    27°12'25.5210”N     089°30'59.5930”E

PR732    27°14'35.9090"N    089°31'03.6970”E

PR714 27°15'40.07”N    89°31'41.76”E

PR712    27°16'46.41”N    89°32'21.13”E

ARC8   27°18'17.69”N   89°32'45.27”E

ARC9 27°19'2.30”N    89°32'36.32”E

ARC10 27°19'30.65”N     89°32'5.43”E

ARC11   27°19'52.59”N    89°31'21.97”E

ARC12    27°20'1.83”N    89°30'38.93”E

PR710    27°19'47.77”N    89°29'56.16”E

PR708    27°20'1.34”N    89°28'15.50”E
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Tue, 13 Aug 2019 10:41
Third One:
Starts at PR888 / 17000ft

PR888 27°08'26.7280"N 089°10'56.1170”E    ///  17000ft

PR744 27°09'36.8360"N 089°13'17.2460”E

PR742 27°10'28.1180"N 089°16'24.5760”E

PR740 27°10'59.4240"N 089°23'06.7380”E

PR738 27°11'09.3070"N 089°25'14.5690”E

PR736 27°11'19.0580"N 089°26'20.8970”E

PR734 27°13'45.1210"N 089°30'27.7270”E

PR732 27°14'35.9090"N 089°31'03.6970”E

// this onwards common to all 3

PR714 27°15'40.07”N    89°31'41.76”E

PR712    27°16'46.41”N    89°32'21.13”E

ARC8   27°18'17.69”N   89°32'45.27”E

ARC9 27°19'2.30”N    89°32'36.32”E

ARC10 27°19'30.65”N     89°32'5.43”E

ARC11   27°19'52.59”N    89°31'21.97”E

ARC12    27°20'1.83”N    89°30'38.93”E

PR710    27°19'47.77”N    89°29'56.16”E

PR708    27°20'1.34”N    89°28'15.50”E

Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: RogerH on Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:00
Wow Farrokh - that's a lot of work! Thanks.

General question - how do I get this into PSX - do I manually type the data into individual fixes in the CDU, or can I copy/paste somewhere?
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:55
hi

edit:  made an updated  approach for 33  :   Approach VQPR 33 v2.situ

http://farrokhchothia.com/slists/paro/     

you'll have to input each one as described on pg 388 of the PSX manual

the PRxxx points are not in the Psx nav database (or any of the other sim packages, afaik) .....  perhaps created specifically for Paro, by NavBlue i believe.... 

PR888  27°08'26.7280"N   089°10'56.1170”E

would be: N2708.4E08910.9

26.7280 here is /60 but the CDU will take a /10 value, so round off the seconds to the closest decimal...

... to the best of my knowledge.....  :)


fc
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Wed, 14 Aug 2019 22:40
you'll have to input each one as described on pg 388 of the PSX manual
... or load one of the .situ files and modify it without changing the route.

Hoppie
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Hardy Heinlin on Thu, 15 Aug 2019 00:58
... or save your FMC route with the Archive button on Instructor > Situation > Human > Dispatcher.

It will go into the folder Aerowinx/Routes
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Thu, 15 Aug 2019 07:08
RW15 app 1

STARTS AT PR888 / 17000

see plate: http://farrokhchothia.com/slists/paro/vqpr_2.jpg


PR888     27°08'26.7280"N 089°10'56.1170”E    / 17000

PR744     27°09'36.8360"N 089°13'17.2460”E

ARC16    27°12'29.31”N      89°16'32.09”E

PR842      27°14'53.3100"N 089°17'29.4920”E     / 15200

ARC3    27°18'3.37”N   89°18'14.31”E

ARC2   27°20’43.90"    89°18'37.05”E

PR730     27°19'10.0600"N 089°18'20.1150"E

PR799    27°22'05.1840"N 089°17'39.0390”E     / 13800

PR818   27°24'17.6560"N 089°16'00.2150”E

ARC17    27°25'35.69”N    89°15'31.55”E

ARC18    27°27'21.49”N    89°15'52.54"E

PR816     27°28'32.5620"N 089°17'04.6530”E    / 13800
 
PR814     27°28'56.8980"N 089°18'24.3830”E

ARC19    27°28'56.92”N      89°19'46.39”E

ARC20    27°28'25.16”N     89°20'45.97"E

PR812    27°27'27.9730"N 089°21'43.7780"E

PR810   27°26'17.8700"N 089°23'26.1840"E

PR808   27°24'20.7330"N 089°25'45.6500"E
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: DougSnow on Fri, 16 Aug 2019 00:49
In the RW you cant build any RNAV-based procedure in the FMS, if it isn't in there, you cant do it. In the real FMS, when you do anything manually, you're building those fixes as flyover waypoints; thats not how they may be coded in the procedure, they could be coded as fly-by waypoints. So instead of the perfect and pretty radius to fix arc that the procedure designer built, you'd fly a series of short straight segments. 

For any RNP-AR based procedure worldwide (lets say my airline wanted VQPR), we'll approach the airline that owns the procedure and ask if we can use their procedures for our aircraft.  If they approve, they'll provide all the engineering data, and an approval we'd give (in our case to the FAA), in our application for the procedure. If it was something we designed in house (or had someone design for us, for there are companies that do that), its the same deal.  Once we're approved (or in a parallel effort) then we go to the FMS data company to add the procedure to the FMS, and then to our charting company to add the procedure to our chart subscription.
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Hardy Heinlin on Fri, 16 Aug 2019 04:50
... you're building those fixes as flyover waypoints; thats not how they may be coded in the procedure, they could be coded as fly-by waypoints.

(Typo? You meant to say: Fly-by is pilot entry, fly-over is procedure code?)
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: farrokh747 on Fri, 16 Aug 2019 06:39
i dont think any other airline apart from Druk Air flies scheduled into VQPR....

Some of my BizJet pilot friends who have flown in, the govt apparently  insists on a Druk pilot/navigator in the right seat.... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78FXZXD2Ozw

Quote
A full arrival, approach and missed approach strategy have been designed for both Runway 33/15 by Navblue, airbus Company whose logo will appear on the STAR and RNP AR Cloud break procedure Chart.

Ive not seen a set of RNAV approaches made specifically for a country/airport/airline before...  which don't seem to exist in the usual globally published database/s..  RW or Sim World.....


Quote
So instead of the perfect and pretty radius to fix arc that the procedure designer built, you'd fly a series of short straight segments. 

True....  Unique to this is that the arcs are measured from another set of fixes, which are published in the AIP, and again don't exist in the std databases.... 

PRC51  27°17'44.7540"N   089°30'17.9720"E 

Ive used these centres to guesstimate the arc/dist, using 2 or 3 points, using google earth...

Ive not tried this in the sim as yet, as the default VQPR RW/s don't line up with PSX...  ill have to install the addon airport and give it a try....

Anyway, give it a try and lets see if the numbers work....

cheers!

fc




Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: United744 on Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:01
I just tried flying it visually without a procedure (X-Plane visuals), using a 5 NM extended centerline to eye-ball it.

Thankfully it is a simulator.

Interesting approach to fly visually!

600000 lbs is quite possible (takeoff and landing) so good options for flying into an intermediate airport for fuel.
Title: Re: VQPR - Paro... Any 744 routes available?
Post by: Markus Vitzethum on Fri, 16 Aug 2019 16:15
Hi all,

for the Stevens participants in Worldflight 2017, I prepared some sort of "Airport Familiarization" back then. This was done before the RNP approaches became available and focuses on the visual segments of the approaches to both runway ends. (But the RNP approaches still require visual segments, anyhow.) Maybe it works for you too:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Rb_zMTWhasl3xGiaZ5NExDdY6c2mqyjCZb-LgRUeRcU/edit?usp=sharing

Note: the intention is not to give a full Paro briefing but just an idea how to fly the different visual approaches that are possible. For each approach, there is a youtube video reference flying that particular flight path. Waypoints are approximate and just for support of visual flight.

Last but not least here is my try at Paro during WF2017:   
Approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVjioH9fv30
Departure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6vyXB5bVJI

Markus

p.s.
I came in - and departed - before BAW47C.  ;D